Yo! MtG TAPS! #5 – Five With Worlds Decks
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 58:00 — 26.6MB)
Joey and BigHeadJoe talk about the results and happenings of Worlds 2009!
Wizards’ Official Worlds Coverage:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds09/welcome
Information on the disqualification of Charles Gindy (and Team USA):
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/careful-consideration-national-tragedy/
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4612413&postcount=66
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds09/disqualifications
Our blogs:
affinityforislands.com
otherworldlyjourney.blogspot.com
E-mail us at yomtgtaps@gmail.com
Follow us on Twitter @yomtgtaps
Follow Joey on Twitter @AffinityForBlue
I don’t view as the Gindy issue as cheating, more like he didn’t wanna play for his opponent. His opponent at the time is also responsible for the cards being used correctly and is at fault just as much as Gindy if not more, the dude is playing at worlds and should know his stuff before he starts looking for free wins. What happened from what I heard through the worlds coverage is that his opponent didn’t assign the damage on his end from the master’s ability and then when questioned by Gindy about it at the end of the game, called for a judge.
To me this raises the question what the line is for when we need to start playing for our dumb opponents.
Intentionally misplaying an ability, and/or not correcting your opponent for misplaying an ability, is by definiation a form of Cheating.
Regarding the Flores / Coimbra … Andre Coimbra for the past 3-4 years, has consisently gotten his decks directly from Mike Flores as a personal deck builder. He is also a regular playtest partner via MTGO for Flores. I’m not at all surprised that the exact 75 were used, as they probably spend a significant amount of time working on it together.
Also you can’t have the alternate take over, because people might think that it’s fianacially useful to run the numbers and get the worst record person removed, and improve the overall team numbers and money paid out.
DQ of a Team is the only solution that could work.
yah but you shouldnt have to play for your opponents, especially in an event like worlds.
That might be your opinion, but the judges will in fact penalize you for cheating if you intentionally don’t keep the game state correct at all times and get caught for taking advantage of an opponent’s lack of understanding or playing correctly or lack of focus to catch every little activity.
Gindy’s situation is just the most recent example of what happens to someone that gets caught when this occurs.
Another example: Failing to resolve missed triggers during an upkeep. Regardless of who owns the cards, but if the game state gets damaged by lack of action by one or both players… it’s anywhere from a Warning to outright Cheating.
Thanks for the responses guys. I understand that by rule, what Gindy did was cheating however, I feel that what he did should not be considered cheating. For example, in the NFL if a team only has ten men on the field, the other team is not penalized for not pointing this out. I simply don’t agree with the rule. If a player misunderstands his cards or the way the game is played, and because of this does not play his cards correctly, I don’t feel it should be the responsibility of his opponent to correct him if it is not to his [the opponent's] advantage to do so. Just my opinion.
As far as team DQ goes, there are a lot of intelligent people working on this game and it is my assertion that there is another way to handle this (although Otwell makes a fantatic point). I’m not sure what the solution is, but I think it deserves to be looked at.
Yah i agree with joey I’m not saying anyone should go against the rules and cheat, but more that the rule is on the stupid side.
I think the point of the rule is that the DCI doesn’t want people letting their opponents make mistakes and then calling a judge later in the game when the game state is broken so they can gain an advantage. That would lead to a lot of rulings having to be made throughout the tournament many of which would be long after the event in question occured so the details will be disputed.
A large tounament would play out much slower without the current rules and many tounaments just don’t have enough judges on staff to handle all of the additional situations that would arise if they changed the rule. Considering most of that trouble can be avoided by someone just pointing out their opponent’s mistake makes the rule a good one in my opinion.
Yes being a pro is awesome, playing Magic is fun, etc., all the stuff you said is true. When it’s the difference between $10,000 and $0, then it’s no longer “just for fun” or “just a game”. Poker is a game as well, but that doesn’t mean you’re not going to get cheaters there also. The same is true in *any* sufficiently competitive endeavor. Tabletop Magic is not tournament Magic, equating them does neither justice.
@Gabriel I think part of the problem is the whole “fix the game state” idea. If the turn has passed, and no one noticed the problem or pointed it out, then I think that should mean it’s too late to back up and change things. Again, I cite the NFL—once the snap has gone off, it’s too late to challenge the previous play. I know Magic is not the NFL, but I believe the rules from other professional games are a good reference point.
@david koontz: I understand completely that you are going to get cheaters anywhere that there is money involved, David. Look at Wall St. I was simply saying that I can’t even grasp the concept of cheating to gain an advantage in a game where you have so much control over what goes into your deck and how it works, unlike poker, where everyone is playing from the same deck. If you want an advantage in Magic, build a better deck. Its a game at it’s core, whereas poker and blackjack are almost always played with gambling and winning money as the primary objective. Magic is not played at any casinos as far as I know.
BHJ
Even if the master says what Gindy thought it said, then Gindy wouldn’t be requried to say ‘why don’t you kill one of my wolves’ HOWEVER he would have been required to say ‘how are you assigning the 2 damage?’. If the opponent puts it on the 3/3, everything is fine, too bad for the opp. But it is not ok for that 2 damage to go unmentioned.
@MyNameIsFourteen
You’re right, there needed to be clearer communication during the match. But I don’t agree that the punishment fits the crime. NEITHER player mentioned the damage.
What Gindy was DQ’d for was Fraud, which is defined as: “A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.”
Based on my understanding of the events:
1) It is clear that what Gindy did was NOT intentional. If he intended to violate or misrepresent the situation, he would have to be an idiot to have brought it to light after the game, AFTER having already gotten away with it.
2) It is apparent that Gindy did not “knowingly” violate or misrepresent the situation either. He clearly didn’t “know” how the card worked, or he would have understood that his opponent’s 2/2 could have only dealt 2 damage to his 3/3 wolf, and therefore would not have had the question for his opponent after the match. He didn’t “know” he was violating the rules or else he would not have brought it up after having gotten away with it.
In my opinion, based on my understanding of what occurred, Gindy’s actions do not fulfill the definition of Fraud as defined in the rules. Therefore he should not have been punished for Fraud.
This is where we disagree, and based on my understanding of what happened… I believe Gindy did KNOW that he was violating the rules by intentionally not asking his opponent to assign the damage at the time that the event occurred.
This was in Round 6 of the event, and really far along in him using the card himself. It definately was not his first or only usage of that card.
I do believe that Gindy felt he was safe to ask the question, so he proceeded too.
On top of that… In the old days, PT’s were 40k Events and run at level 4 Rules Enforcement; where as Worlds was a 48k Event and the only even run at level 5 Rules Enforcement. What that translates to in Modern Tournament Magic, I don’t know… But the Judges for years would tighten down the clamps on Rulings at Worlds, even when compared to a Pro Tour.
I guess we can agree to disagree then
Of course, the thing is, we don’t REALLY know what happened and no one but Gindy will ever know what was going on in his head.
The thing that strikes me as odd is why Gindy would have felt safe to bring it up, if indeed he was cheating. It’s this that makes me believe he didn’t knowingly or intentionally violate the rules. If he knew he was getting away with something, logic does not support the idea of drawing attention to it.
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